Progression raid leading – why to not require TS or such
So you’re a tank and chances are, you’ve already raided or PUGed with some TeamSpeak-thingy in work to “make communication easier”, and probably it occured to you that this is logical and something you should do in your guild’s runs also. Probably everyone already kind-of-insists on TeamSpeak being used. I’ll tell you why we don’t use it, and why I recommend that for progression raiding.
In our guild the main reason not to use TeamSpeak was that some didn’t want to install yet another piece of software. Fair enough I say, but still there’s the ingame-voice-tool, which actually works well and does the job. Just when we would do our first Kara-run my mic wouldn’t work, so we went in without any tools (one exception, the only thing I require every raid member to have installed is Omen)
Overcome the nonbelievers
As we’re only 7 we needed 3 randoms to fill up. It’s funny what reactions you get when raiding without a voice tool. “No TS? *roflol*” – “no way!” – “how’s that supposed to be even possible?” – “I call mommy now!”. People freak out if there’s no TS. Why? Because they don’t like to pay attention.
When I knew we wouldn’t be able to discuss tactics in a voice tool I wrote up my Compact Kara Guide. Before every boss I’d just copy & paste the tactics, let everyone read them, make a short Q&A and then we’d start. If there was something important happening I’d announce it with a raid warning. That’s that.
Why the pain?
Admitted, it is easier to have someone tell everybody what to do in a voice tool. But doing it without everyone not only has to do what someone tells him to, but everyone has to pay attention. Everyone has to understand the mechanics of the encounter and learn how to react to them. We don’t even use a raiding-addon and I think this is crucial in learning how to raid.
I’d say that voice tools and raid addons make it easier to clear out farm content, granted. There might also be encounters where they make as big a difference as it would be masochistic not to use them (I haven’t seen such a fight yet, but also haven’t seen any high-end raiding content).
Beneficial side effects may occur
Not only did this help our members to learn what to do in boss encounters, but it also made us learn fast how to improvise on bad trash pulls and in close call situations. People aren’t going crazy waiting for someone to announce what to happen, but they use what’s at their hands and trust each other to do the same. You’d be surprised about what your group is able to pull off if they aren’t restricted to waiting for commands.
This is an interesting view of things, but I find that the general banter of Vent during trash and the ability to quickly let people know when things are happening during a boss fight (Flame Wreath, for instance) makes Ventrillo pretty invaluable.
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Yeah, the social aspects that vent/TS bring are huge, and to be honest, Karazhan isn’t exactly hard, regardless if you have voice comms or not, you can have people dying and still do it.
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I would recommend the approach training people to use Vent/TS appropriately (keeping it clear during important parts, keeping communication short and to the point).
There are fights where you simply need more eyes, particularly if your the one coordinating things. Having people be able to keep doing their job, while reporting on information you couldn’t possibly get yourself, is invaluable.
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There’s a reason you won’t find a single progression guild (and let’s be honest, unless you’re in BT, you’re not on progression) that doesn’t voice commo. In easy content, raid chat and common sense are enough. In more complicated encounters, vent is a must. You need to be able to call out if you get fire/curse/etc on you, because the busy healer/decurser simply won’t notice. If you call out, “Hine got fire!” you’re much more likely to live to kill that mob!
If you applied the same sound leadership principles you describe in your post to vent, you’ll find your effectiveness will skyrocket!
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Also, I’m not being condescending in calling Kara ‘easy.’ It has been nerfed enough at this point (pre-3.0), but that’s not even it. I made my lock alt and leveled it, tailor, heroic badges, boe etc. I had never set foot into Kara, got an invite into my guild’s Hyjal run, and was 5th dps (behind the other aoers). I did one Kara run, got two needed drops, and proceeded directly to BT. I still have only one piece of Tier gear (T6 gloves), but do just fine in BT. The availability of very high end gear outside of raids means an early raid like Kara is trivialized both by the difficulty of the content and the availability of superior gear. No TS/vent required. But in 25-man content where gear is insufficient and the bosses are difficult, voice makes a huge difference.
-Hine
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Well “easy” is in the eye of the beholder, I’d say. We’re a casual guild, and so will be for WotLK. One raid day a week, no more. No 25 man content, for the simple reason that we don’t want the game to become a more organizational thing than fun.
And how valuable ever TS might be, I’d not want to use it until everyone already knows what to do. It makes things easier, no doubt. But it also makes not knowing things easier, “hanging by”. I want everyone to pay full attention.
My point is not that Voice Communication is bad or useless. I just say it’s not a requirement. I don’t like that many people think it’s the only way to go. And it’s not rare that those who scream for it the most are the ones that don’t have a clue what’s going on around them.
If you can only react to someone telling you what to do then what value are you of? Aren’t you replacable for anyone with the same gear?
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Some players really, truly don’t have an option to use Teamspeak or Ventrilo when playing (for whatever reason). These may be great players, but they are often shunned in the public eye for simply not having VOIP capabilities that have went all, but mainstream at this point.
The real question is why? Well, it makes things easier for players who aren’t familiar with certain aspects of the game. I would argue the vast majority on Ventrilo aren’t even discussing something important, but rather chitter chatter about what they did the night before.
To state that something like Karazhan is simply too easy & isn’t progression is folly. While Karazhan may be significantly easier now, and is indeed an entry-level raid, it is nevertheless a raid in which guilds normally progress to higher dungeons. Whether they are using the gear from Karazhan or simply doing Badge runs to gear via Badges of Justice it matters not. The point is, they went through Karazhan to get to SSC & TK (which are very much alive, at least as of yesterday).
Progression means going from one point to another. It doesn’t mean going from Black Temple to Sunwell Plateau.
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Sorry, Kara is easy NOW. It wasn’t early in BC, but it is now. As I stated earlier, without setting foot into a 10-man, and even with very very little 5-man work, it’s easy to get a toon overgeared for Kara. If you can get essentially T5/6 gear (combination of crafted/badge/boe gear), then Kara becomes trivial. You take less damage, do more, and have bigger heals. Progessing on content that has become much much less difficult can’t be considered ‘progression’ in terms of raiding. You can certainly enjoy seeing content that’s new to you, but you can’t consider it ‘progression’ until the gear you have doesn’t make the content trivial.
And again, for those that say voice isn’t essential should try raiding 25-mans without it, at least true progression raids where your gear is underwhelming. You will have much more difficulty. Guaranteed. Why put yourself through that? And if raid members use vent to chat, you as RL should control that. Tell them to shut up with the chatter during raid. Anyone who doesnt’ listen gets as many warnings as you feel they need, then a raid kick to demonstrate your seriousness. Vent is an essential tool in coordinating and accomplishing difficult 25-man raid content. Perhaps your point is well-taken for anything else.
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Talldar Reply:
October 14th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Well, if you like it or not, to us Karazhan is not easy. Many of us learn their first raid-boss fights. We get used to the mechanics and abilities, and how to deal with a 10-man-raid at all. We significantly improve with the items dropping. We get to bosses we’ve never ever seen before. If that’s not progression, than what is?
Ari put it very well, indeed. Progression depends on where you are, not what’s out there.
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Heh, fair enough, call it what you like. I understand what you’re saying. I mean, I had no clue what a raid was when I first stepped into Kara with my poor newbie guild way back when. The difference now though is (even before 3.0), 1) Kara has been nerfed significantly and 2)access to overpowered gear outside of Kara has increased dramatically. Your guild should be taking advantage of what’s out there! Sure, you’ll still be learning how to work together and raid and not stand in fire etc, but it should be and can be much much easier for you.
Anyway, I’m not trying to be elitist or get caught up in a semantic game.
I am trying to say that for lower-level or smaller raids I can see vent as possibly optional, but I’ll steadfastly reiterate that for those of you who haven’t been there, you simply can’t argue that a vent-less raid wouldn’t be a major handicap for progression in difficult 25 mans.
Muru was freaking hard enough to down (average guild was over 200 attempts) without adding the ridiculous impediment of not being able to determine where the RL wanted you to run next (while dealing with adds, aoe, etc etc). And a preset plan like ‘run north in p2′ won’t always work. You’ll just have to trust me on this. :)
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I agree that some type of voice chat is exceptionally helpful (if not necessary) for 25 man raids. Our guild actually will typically require it for Kara runs, even though for the guild as a whole, Kara and ZA are on farm and the guild is raiding the last bosses of SSC/TK and in BT.
I do take exception, however, to the suggestion that Kara isn’t a legitimate progression raid for warrior tanks. I won’t argue DPS, or even healers…but for a prot warrior who isn’t respecing to DPS to raid other content, Kara is the legitimate start of progression. As someone who plays a Kara-stage warrior, I found that tanking all heroics (except maybe Mech and SP) were near impossible without Kara gear. Too much damage on me and not enough threat = dead healy-clothy-type. Forget what the DPS are doing…if you’re taking 2-3 targets and getting pounded, you can’t keep enough threat to keep the mobs off of the healer. As I got more pieces of Kara gear and started picking up a couple of pieces of badge gear, suddenly I became able to tank more and more content in heroics. The point is this — without Kara, there would have been no progression into later heroics. I suposse I could have respec’d and dps’d raids (and I did do this a bit) but if you’re playing strictly a prot warrior tank, it is not really possible to progress through heroics without Kara (in my opinion). As an additional point…consider this….would your guild ever take a tank with 1-2 tier items and otherwise blues into SSC or TK? Now switch that around and make that a DPS. I’m not saying all of your DPS…or even a few…but maybe one. We all know the answer to that is yes (heck, I’ve even been the dps with all blues in SSC).
It’s one thing to say that you find Kara laughable or easy now that you’re raiding BT….it’s another to say it’s not a part of progression. I would argue that it is still required for warrior tanks who wish to tank later content and that there is no viable alternative (except perhaps tanking heroic mech/sp with people who could run it without a real tank until you have enough badges for the leggings & chest and do pvp for the shoulders). Remember that the “well-geared” warrior pre-Kara and pre-heroics will have about 12k hps, 490 defense, 14k armor…passive avoidance of about 35%…and will hit like a granny wielding a stroller. Post Kara this same warrior will be around 15-16k hps, passive avoidance of around 60% — with a signficantly improved ability to generate threat. Just my $0.02.
Again, this post is meant solely for warrior tanks and may not be applicable to any primary dps warrior or any other class. Your experience may vary. Use only as directed. Batteries not included.
Darv
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Hinenuitepo Reply:
October 16th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Good points Darv and not having played a tank (but having raided at least ZA with every other possible type of class), I’m not as aware of alternative ways to gear up. However, I do know that you can buy BOE tanking weaps that are op for kara – I do know I can craft plate armor that should top anything available in Kara now, so that should get you started. Perhaps that’s not enough and I wouldn’t know. I do know the badge trinkets are awesome for tanking and still in use by T6/SWP tanks – but getting those without Kara or heroics might be tough (running SSO dailies for the chance at badges would be painfully slow lol). So you may have a point there. I agree that getting to run farm content with your BT guild to gear up for Kara does not count. I’ll stand by my point though that for all the other classes you can completely bypass Kara with available gear, and if do choose to step into Kara with all that alternative gear, then Kara is trivial content.
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